I have written a couple of times about the debate between hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and battery electric (here and here). Proponents of each are busy slandering the other. Meanwhile, Toyota and Mercedes are quietly proving that the two technologies are perfect compliments.
Fuel Cell Hybrid Vehicles (FCHV)
Toyota is the world wide leader in hybrid vehicles (thanks to the Prius). They are applying what they know about gasoline-electric hybrids to make FCHVs. Take a look at this diagram:
Essentially, they have replaced the gasoline engine from their hybrid drive-train with a hydrogen fuel cell. This allows for a zero emissions vehicle that has a range of over 500 miles and refuels in roughly the same amount of time it takes you and me to fill up with gasoline.
Mercedes is doing the same thing only with a bus.
But Battery Electric is 3x More Efficient Than Hydrogen!
I know, I know, but remember how Toyota is developing a plug-in version of the Prius? It’s a Prius that you charge at home, then drive 30-40 miles on 100% battery power. Doesn’t it seem reasonable that they will apply the same technology to the FCHV? Imagine! All of your quick drives use only efficient battery power charged from the grid. When you need longer range, however, the hydrogen fuel cell kicks in and provides it for you.
I think this is the most promising alternative fuel arrangement that I have seen. It has all the convenience of a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (or gasoline for that matter) plus the efficiency of a battery electric vehicle.
Thoughts?
Tags: battery, electric, fchv, fuel cell, hydrogen, mercedes, prius, toyota
Benton,
This is why I fight so hard to put the facts out there.
The upcoming plug-in Toyota Prius will actually only get 10 miles of driving range, not 30 or 40 miles of driving range.
Furthermore, the following article discusses why hydrogen fuel cell vehicles with plug-in battery technology are not viable even if battery costs were not an issue (i.e. way too much trunk/passenger space would be taken up):
http://hydrogendiscoveries.wordpress.com/2008/12/20/are-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-with-plug-in-battery-technology-viable/
Furthermore, regarding the cost issues with fuel cells and batteries, here are some recent quotes from Bill Reinert of Toyota and Masaaki Kato of Honda:
Bill Reinert:
Excerpt #1
“Having said all that, I’m still very bullish on the promise of fuel cells. There are several manufacturers that are turning out very promising cars, cars that couldn’t be realized without using fuel cells. Most of us have solved many of the initial problems including energy density and cold weather performance. We still have some cost problems, but at least we can see a clear pathway. Energy storage is still an issue, but we’re learning how to design around that.
I think the biggest issue facing the emergence of fuel cells has nothing to do with the products and everything to do with the infrastructure. Despite all the work the auto companies have done to develop the cars, there isn’t a corresponding effort on the infrastructure side. We can develop the best car in the world, but if the customer can’t find fuel for it, they’re unlike to adopt it.”
Excerpt #2
“Considering the batteries we have today, and the trajectory of the technological development, I am pessimistic about the viability of a mass market for battery electric cars in the near to mid-term.
Our current battery technology simply does not provide the cost, durability and energy storage attributes that allow for the development of mass-market products.”
Masaaki Kato:
“Kato told Bloomberg that Honda engineers don’t believe lithium-ion batteries will satisfy most consumers because of their high cost and limited range compared to gasoline engines.
In Japan, he said, battery developers are still trying to meet a government goal of boosting energy storage capacity by seven times while slashing battery costs to just 2.5 percent of current costs.
‘That gives you a pretty clear example of what type of gap we’re facing relative to a gasoline vehicle,’ Kato said. ‘At this point, I’d say it’s impossible to imagine a date at which such a breakthrough could occur.’
He said Honda believes it will be easier, less costly and quicker to perfect the fuel-cell electric vehicle, such as the FCX Clarity that it is leasing in small numbers to select consumers in Southern California and Japan.”
http://hydrogendiscoveries.wordpress.com/2009/02/15/bill-reinert-national-manager-of-toyotas-advanced-technology-group-and-honda-research-chief-masaaki-kato-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-will-be-economical-before-plug-in-battery-cars/
Greg Blencoe
Chief Executive Officer
Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc.
Greg,
Sorry about my slow response. It appears that I understated some of the limitations of battery technology. Thank-you for pointing that out. Even so, I was only trying to illustrate that batteries and fuel cells, when used together, compliment each other. This is especially true for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. In order to take advantage of regenerative brakes, shocks, solar panels, and other sources of energy these vehicles have to use batteries along side their fuel cells. Toyota’s FCHV is the ultimate example of how to combine these two technologies.
Benton,
I completely agree that batteries will play an extremely important part in all fuel cell vehicles (e.g. as you mentioned, with the Toyota FCHV). My issue has always been with plug-in battery vehicles that will require much larger batteries.
I just got back from the annual National Hydrogen Association conference and learned a lot more about the problems with plug-in battery vehicles from several extremely credible people.
Two years from now, I think people will see plug-in battery technology MUCH different than today.
Greg Blencoe
Chief Executive Officer
Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc.
[...] weaknesses. Maybe the whole debate is a mute point? More on that soon. Update: Click here to read Toyota and Merceds are Proving that that Hydrogen FC and Battery Electric are Perfect Compliments Share [...]
hi, sorry to interrupt you both. from a talk i heard that mitsubishi had just released their electric cars and sold like hot cake. is it true?
FYI…
From the article below:
Mitsubishi electric car pricey even with subsidies
“* Aims to sell 15,000 units in year to March 2012″
“TOKYO, June 5 (Reuters) - Japan’s Mitsubishi Motors Corp (7211.T) on Friday priced the world’s first mass-produced electric car at $47,580, cheaper than a rival model but still more than double the price of popular hybrid gas-electric vehicles.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNews/idUST1738020090605
Greg Blencoe
Chief Executive Officer
Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc.
“Hydrogen Car Revolution” blog
Good innovation from Mercedes. Really good eco-friendly mobile, which I like much. We should keep the nature and the air, from our car polutions. This is the most important.
One thing I’ve been wondering is… Why aren’t these car manufacturers making the most of our technology?
For instance when I buy a zero emission car I want my windows tinted with photovoltaics along with my paint job. Also what would be kewl is to have all the inside plastics photovoltaic for charging the batts too.
Think i am crazy? Check out / google http://www.g24i.com - in ‘07 they were selling phones that could charge themselves in light so limited it would charge in your bag or pocket.
If the paint power output is true then this just screams electric car!
Man I love this new technology stuff.
I’ve seen those solar chargers put to use “mossy”
One the size of a sheet of A4 paper produces 2.5 amps, thats pathetic
If the phone had these solar cells all over it the phone would only be able to charge while turned off, and it would take days
The highest quality solar panels must be more efficient but the ones available for less than £500 to the general public aren’t worth bothering with